Weekly Chat from About Archaeology
Moderated by Pat Garrow and K. Kris Hirst
Transcript: March 18, 2001: Speaker J. Barto Arnold
Note: This transcript has been slightly edited for readability. Because of a technical glitch, Mr. Arnold's responses were telephoned into Pat Garrow, who typed them for him.
Information about Mr. Arnold's work has been stored here.
Printer-Friendly Chat Transcript
| .............. Log on barto.log started at Sun Mar 18 18:11:31 PST 2001 ........... | |
| Pat Garrow | Our guest for tonight is J Barto Arnold of the Institute for Nautical Archaeology |
| Pat Garrow | How did you get started in archaeology? |
| J. Barto Arnold | I was an anthropology major as undergrad specializing in archaeology |
| Pat Garrow | Where are you from originally? |
| J. Barto Arnold | San Antonio |
| Kris Hirst | Were you a diver first or an archaeologist? |
| J. Barto Arnold | I was an archaeologist before diver; and learned to dive in the field |
| Pat Garrow | How did you turn to underwater archaeology? |
| J. Barto Arnold | I had a job in the conservation lab cleaning Padre Island shipwreck artifacts and realized I like historic more than prehistoric |
| Pat Garrow | how many wrecks have you worked on? |
| J. Barto Arnold | about a dozen |
| IreneH1 | What historical time frames? |
| J. Barto Arnold | time frames? 1554-WWII |
| IreneH1 | Quite a range! |
| Kris Hirst | Tell us about the LaBelle project. How did you get involved? |
| J. Barto Arnold | I conceptualized project while with the state, raised money, and found the La Belle |
| Kris Hirst | really? so you went looking for it? |
| IreneH1 | That sounds almost too easy... |
| J. Barto Arnold | Yes: I did not find it in '78. found it on second attempt in '95 |
| Kris Hirst | Have you looked for other shipwrecks in the same way? and what attracted you to this particular shipwreck? |
| J. Barto Arnold | the LaSalle incident is a key episode in Texas history |
| Kris Hirst | Tell us more about the LaBelle project. how old is it? and why is it a key episode? |
| J. Barto Arnold | LaBelle sank in 1685; it was a ship for the La Salle colony, which provided the French claim to all of central America |
| IreneH1 | Did this ship sink in a battle then? |
| J Barto Arnold | Ship sank in a storm. crew was drunk-had run out of water and had only wine; the crew was also sick |
| Kris Hirst | what were your clues to finding it? |
| J. Barto Arnold | French and Spanish documents that had to be interpreted together to get a search area |
| J. Barto Arnold | It was found just outside the earlier search area |
| Kris Hirst | it wasn't the only ship in LaSalle's fleet, right? |
| Kimberly | Barto, given your vested interest in the LaSalle fleet, would you consider further remote sensing to find the L'Aimiable? |
| J Barto Arnold | There are ongoing searches by others, Kimberly |
| IreneH1 | How well was the ship preserved? |
| J. Barto Arnold | 1/3 to half perfectly preserved under mud with contents |
| IreneH1 | Any surprises in the content? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Excellent state of preservation, even rope preserved |
| IreneH1 | How deep? |
| J. Barto Arnold | 11 feet deep |
| Kris Hirst | Has the conservation effort been a learning experience? |
| J. Barto Arnold | always |
| Kris Hirst | how so? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Conservation is being handled by someone else. although there are general techniques for any type of material. each artifact demands fine tuning of those techniques |
| Kris Hirst | So what did you learn from the La Belle? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Two general categories of new information: hull construction for the ship type and the nature of the contents-what constituted appropriate supplies |
| J. Barto Arnold | Hull construction details were never recorded on paper. information is all new |
| Kris Hirst | tell us about that |
| J. Barto Arnold | Not involved with the project at this point. rest being done by others |
| IreneH1 | What is your task as regards such a project? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Design research, conduct research, raise money, and more |
| IreneH1 | Aha! |
| Kris Hirst | What project are you involved with now? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Civil War blockade runner Denbigh |
| Kris Hirst | how did you get involved with that project? |
| J. Barto Arnold | When I changed jobs and went to INA, I began to look around for an interesting project. The Denbigh had been a possible project. Did a scouting trip with others and found the wreck |
| J. Barto Arnold | INA/TAMU (Texas A&M University) did this jointly |
| Kris Hirst | It must take a special blend of intuition and research to find wrecks. |
| J. Barto Arnold | yes it does. historical and field research must both be done |
| Kris Hirst | Tell us about the Denbigh; when did she sink and under what conditions? |
| IreneH1 | And where? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Denbigh sank May, 1865, ran aground sneaking into Galveston Bay |
| Kris Hirst | was she union or confederate? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Ship was burned by Union boat parties the next morning |
| Kris Hirst | really? Was Galveston a Union hold at the time? |
| J. Barto Arnold | privately owned British flag working for the Confederacy. Galveston port was controlled by the Confederacy, but was blockaded by Union ships |
| Pat Garrow | What kind of cargo did you find? |
| Kris Hirst | so, was the assemblage of artifacts primarily British or confederate (and is there a distinct difference?) |
| J. Barto Arnold | Few contents found so far. no manifest for the last trip. expect half military supplies and half luxury goods |
| J. Barto Arnold | ship was British built and hull and machinery about all that was found so far |
| IreneH1 | You said earlier: "raising money". Does that include private resources? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Private individuals and foundations have funded almost all of the Denbigh project |
| Kris Hirst | what kind of publication works best with an underwater archaeological project? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Combination of professional papers at conferences, journal articles, and books at the end, public outreach is also important, so I work with the press and have an extensive web presence |
| Pat Garrow | there is an extensive website on the Denbigh |
| tigone | http://archaeology.about.com/library/chat/n_arnold.htm |
| IreneH1 | What's the average cost of a project? |
| J. Barto Arnold | to Irene--varies widely, but for any underwater excavations it is several hundreds of thousands |
| J. Barto Arnold | Tom Oertlinig and Andy Hall are my co-PIs on the Denbigh (Andy Hall is "tigone" today) |
| Kris Hirst | what kinds of things do you have lined up in the future? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Starting a riverboat wreck project in cooperation with the State of Oklahoma, and going on a scouting trip to St. Croix next week |
| jenna62 | how many are in a crew? |
| J. Barto Arnold | field crews usually a dozen or so |
| J. Barto Arnold | volunteers are added to crews as available |
| Kimberly | Scouting trip to St. Croix? Sounds interesting... |
| J. Barto Arnold | St Croix trip mainly an inspection of an endangered National Landmark--the Columbus Landing site on Salt River |
| IreneH1 | Have you ever been involved in any European projects? (My era of interest is Roman History, and I have visited the Antique Ship Museum in Mainz, Germany) |
| J. Barto Arnold | I have not, but the INA has done extensive work there |
| Kris Hirst | I've heard of riverboats that are now in ground, because the river channel has changed course (like the Bertrand) What special problems does a river pose when you're looking for a shipwreck? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Red River wreck in Oklahoma was under land and has now eroded back into the river; River problems--current, bad visibility, debris, varying water levels. Pollution is sometimes a problem |
| Kris Hirst | is a river more erosive to a ship than a large body of water, or does that depend? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Fresh water not as bad as salt. currents can be more destructive to the integrity of the site |
| jenna62 | Do you bring the ship out of water and then what is done with the ship? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Rarely bring the ship out of the water because of conservation costs |
| jenna62 | what exactly are you looking for on a shipwrecked vessel? |
| J. Barto Arnold | ;information on ship, contents, and life on board |
| Kris Hirst | what have you learned about early sailing that surprised you? |
| J. Barto Arnold | how crowded the Padre Island ships were |
| IreneH1 | What do you mean by crowded? |
| J. Barto Arnold | On Padre Island ships--100 people on a 100 foot long ship with almost no below deck accommodations |
| Kris Hirst | amazing! how far did they sail? |
| J. Barto Arnold | From Spain to the West Indies and on to Mexico |
| IreneH1 | What was the function of the Padre Island ships? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Spanish treasure ships, 2/3 passengers |
| IreneH1 | Have you ever had to deal with bounty hunters of whatever they are called? |
| J. Barto Arnold | As State Marine Archaeologist of Texas I had to deal with treasure hunters |
| IreneH1 | What were you more concerned about, theft or disturbing the wreck? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Archaeologists and treasure hunters are constantly locked in mortal debate |
| J. Barto Arnold | I'm more concerned about treasure hunters disturbing wreck--treasure salvage invariably destroys archaeological data and raises ethical issues |
| Kris Hirst | can you talk about those ethical issues? |
| J. Barto Arnold | bottom line--if you sell artifacts then you cannot replicate the research--therefor the scientific method is invalidated |
| jenna62 | If say the "treasure hunters" found the shipwreck and confiscated the treasure, if any. Are there any laws that can restrict them from doing this? |
| J. Barto Arnold | There are laws in some states and on all federally owned land; outside of territorial waters is a big problem |
| Kris Hirst | Do you have students you take with you? are you training the next generation of underwater archaeologists? |
| J. Barto Arnold | yes INA has training students as a high priority |
| IreneH1 | I take it that Underwater Archaeology is a fairly recent specialty? |
| J. Barto Arnold | yes Irene--scientific underwater archaeology began in the late 50s with George Bass |
| tigone | And Cuba -- Castro recently signed a deal with two Canadian salvage firms to hunt for wrecks in what are, archaeologically speaking, among the richest in the world. |
| J. Barto Arnold | Cuba was off limits to treasure hunters until recently |
| IreneH1 | In Europe that includes also buildings/cities underwater. Is there anything like that in the Americas? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Tere are inundated terrestrial sites. there is Port Royal too |
| IreneH1 | Where is Port Royal? |
| J. Barto Arnold | inundated terrestrial sites have not been as fully addressed as shipwrecks, |
| J. Barto Arnold | Donny Hamilton of TAMU/INA spent 10 years excavating Port Royal in Jamaica. there are extensive web resources on it through the INA website |
| J. Barto Arnold | Large part of the port of Port Royal inundated in an earthquake in 1690 |
| Kris Hirst | http://whyfiles.org/036pirates/lost_city.html |
| tigone | http://archaeology.about.com/library/chat/n_arnold.htm |
| IreneH1 | Tigone, you are always a click ahead of me, LOL |
| J. Barto Arnold | there will be a big session on the Denbigh at the SHA meeting next January in Mobile |
| tigone2 | Well, Denbigh's kind of a local celebrity there in Mobile. |
| IreneH1 | Still on terrestrial sites: you said "not as fully addressed". Is it a question of funds? |
| J. Barto Arnold | as always Irene. plus the extreme difficulty of finding the prehistoric ones |
| IreneH1 | Does aerial photography play a part in locating underwater objects? |
| J. Barto Arnold | sometimes ships can be located by aerial photography; as with archaeology in general aerial photography helps show the local setting |
| Kris Hirst | do you use ROVs? (and would you describe ROVs?) |
| J. Barto Arnold | ROVs are remote operated vehicles or small robots. I was involved using ROVs on the Monitor in 1987 |
| IreneH1 | When do you use ROV's? |
| J. Barto Arnold | ROVs are fantastic for underwater archaeology as they allow access to wrecks beyond the reach of divers |
| IreneH1 | How deep is beyond of reach? |
| J. Barto Arnold | safe diving limit is around 100 feet. special technology allows us to push that deeper, but it is really dangerous |
| IreneH1 | getting bends and such, I presume |
| IreneH1 | Can you remove objects with ROV's? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Sometimes you can if they are set up for it |
| IreneH1 | Did you have any 'favorite' project? |
| J. Barto Arnold | the Denbigh project is my favorite project |
| IreneH1 | Have you ever been in physical danger while diving? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Not personally. my work has been in real shallow water, although often on zero visibility |
| IreneH1 | How do you work in zero visibility? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Very slowly and by touch |
| Pat Garrow | last call for questions |
| coop | what's the most controversial site you 've been involved with? |
| J. Barto Arnold | Probably the Padre Island wrecks as one was excavated by treasure hunters, which started an 18 year lawsuit |
| IreneH1 | I just want to say that to me, as "general public", these talks are fascinating! |
| Kris Hirst | what is the next project for you, Barto? After the river boats? |
| J. Barto Arnold | no firm plans right now Kris |
| J. Barto Arnold | maybe deep water research |
| Kris Hirst | sounds interesting; we look forward to seeing more of it on the web! |
| jenna62 | wanted to thank you again for the time. I have learned a lot tonight |
| coop | thanks -- sorry I joined late... |
| J. Barto Arnold | It has been my pleasure to be here. thank you all |
| IreneH1 | As I'm doing a webpage for a Civil War Round Table, this was very opportune: I will put the Denbigh link up there. |
| Pat Garrow | Our next guest will be Dr. Judy Bense, chair of the Department of Anthropology at the University of West Florida. Her topic will be Public Archaeology |
| Kris Hirst | thanks to everyone for coming; it was a great talk |
| Kris Hirst | next Sunday, 9-11 p.m. EST |
| IreneH1 | What's "Public Archaeology"? Is there a "private" one? |
| Kimberly | Thanks, goodnight! |
| Kris Hirst | lol! oh Irene, you are a stitch |
| Pat Garrow | Archaeology that involves the public Irene |
| IreneH1 | just kidding... |
| Kris Hirst | okay, I'm going to log us off |
| .............. Log stopped at Sun Mar 18 20:02:55 PST 2001 ........... |