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Weekly Chat from About Archaeology
Moderated by Pat Garrow and K. Kris Hirst
Transcript: March 25, 2001: Speaker Judy Bense
Note: This transcript has been slightly edited for readability.
Information about Dr. Bense's work has been stored here.
Printer-Friendly Chat Transcript
| .............. Log on bense.log started at Sun Mar 25 18:09:28 PST 2001 ........... | |
| Pat Garrow | Our guest this evening is Dr. Judy Bense, Chair of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology and the Archaeology Institute at the University of West Florida |
| Pat Garrow | good evening Judy |
| Judy Bense | Good evening, Pat and everyone |
| Harrytigger | Hi Dr. Bense |
| Pat Garrow | let's start with you telling us a little about yourself. Where are you from? |
| Judy Bense | I am in Pensacola, Florida, at the University of West Florida. I started the archaeology and anthropology in 1980 and have built it into a sizeable program.... all based on Public Archaeology. |
| Judy Bense | The university is moderate in size, 8000 students, and building something from nothing required something different... I sometimes call it "people power" |
| Pat Garrow | your program at the University of West Florida is one of archaeology's success stories. |
| Pat Garrow | Please tell us how you became interested in archaeology and at what age Judy? |
| Judy Bense | I grew up about 100 miles from here in Panama City, Florida and always wanted to be an archaeologist... just kept reading and waiting until I got to college (FSU to start with) |
| Pat Garrow | So you knew from the beginning what you wanted to do with your life? |
| Judy Bense | I became interested in public archaeology by trying to figure out why a big power company and a city would want to do archaeology.... I began to figure out ways to make archaeology interesting to the public and public sponsors.... it worked right from the beginning |
| Harrytigger | May I ask what is "Public Archaeology"? |
| Pat Garrow | so public archaeology is archaeology that directly involves and informs the public? |
| Judy Bense | Yes, it literally is making the public PART of archaeology: research design, field, lab, analysis, writing... |
| Harrytigger | but under strict supervision I assume? |
| Dick | do you advocate actual fieldwork or just interpreting for the public? |
| Judy Bense | Dick, I bring in the public in every part of what we do. For example right now there are 15-18 volunteers in our university archaeology lab sitting in on "Lab Methods" and they are getting trained to do "real" lab work, not just rough sorting. The come early and stay late and are accurate |
| Judy Bense | The supervision is there of course, but they need less than the undergraduates!!! |
| Judy Bense | We have 5 labs now, and they all are humming!!! |
| IreneH1 | I've seen this only once, in Mainz, Germany, where they are excavating a Roman amphitheater and invited the public to participate in the work. You can see some photos I took here: http://members.nbci.com/placida/p_mainz.htm (URL no longer functioning) |
| Judy Bense | thanks for the info, Irene, you can look at our web site also http://uwf.edu/archaeology and see some of our folks. the volunteers even dive with us on our shipwrecks! |
| Pat Garrow | I know you have done huge projects with totally paid crews and have done the same largely with volunteers. Which do you prefer? |
| Judy Bense | Actually, Pat, I prefer the mix... some paid, some students, some volunteers. Seems to keep everyone on their toes. I actually like the least a crew that is only working for pay. There's more to it than that. |
| Pat Garrow | Some of us are stuck working entirely with paid crews. Understand how you feel |
| Dick | I would agree, but there are many who are less open minded... |
| Pat Garrow | Certainly everything we do is supposed to ultimately be for the public, but I agree that too few of us see it that way |
| Judy Bense | One of the problems in including the public is in "sharing" the "real |
| Judy Bense | sorry about the break... my point is that archaeologists usually exclude the public on purpose. Silly... |
| Pat Garrow | What was the maximum crew size you had working at one time on the Tombigbee Judy? |
| Judy Bense | My max crew size was 110. 10 PhDs and MAs plus crew chiefs and crew. |
| Pat Garrow | that is quite a crew! |
| Judy Bense | We worked for 3 years in Fulton, Mississippi on the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway. One of the projects I ran was $1.8 million alone. Biggest single PI project so far in eastern US |
| IreneH1 | An old waterway? |
| Judy Bense | The report was 11 volumes.... that's enough to choke anyone, but we made it and it jump-started our UWF program here big time |
| Pat Garrow | impressive accomplishment Judy |
| Judy Bense | sorry, my typing is terrible, folks. That is the Tenn-Tom Waterway... |
| Judy Bense | Anyone in the room a volunteer or member of the public? |
| IreneH1 | Member of the public here |
| pgloss | Volunteer for 4 years |
| Harrytigger | I'm a member of the public, but I haven't paid my member dues yet |
| Dick | yes, I'm president of our state amateur/prof organization |
| Harrytigger | I'm looking to become a volunteer somewhere |
| IreneH1 | Dick, does every state have such an organization? |
| Dick | I really don't know, all in the area have to one degree or another |
| Kris Hirst | most states and provinces have at least one amateur organization.. and there's always the Archaeological Institute of America |
| Harrytigger | I just joined that |
| Kris Hirst | they have pretty frequent talks in the major cities |
| Harrytigger | I'm going to my first one on Tuesday |
| IreneH1 | Judy, how do fellow archaeologists from other universities react to your program? |
| Kris Hirst | (it's not Judy's fault, she has kind of a slow connection) |
| Pat Garrow | Judy has been disconnected. she is trying to get back on |
| Kris Hirst | what's the talk on Tuesday, Harry? |
| Harrytigger | Greek Gods - It's in Boston |
| Harrytigger | I'm from Plymouth |
| ............................ Judy Bense left. (as a result of technical troubles)............ | |
| Kris Hirst | I haven't had time lately, but they have at least one a month here (Iowa City) |
| Harrytigger | It should be interesting |
| Kris Hirst | how do you like running the local organization, Dick? |
| Kris Hirst | do you have a large group? |
| Harrytigger | Dick where are you from? |
| Dick | with the great help of the state historical society, I'm having a ball! Our group is in Kansas and has about 400 members |
| Harrytigger | I go to Wichita and KC often |
| Dick | we have run an annual field school for the last 25 years |
| pgloss | In my area Metro Washington, D. C., we - fortunately - have a number of volunteer programs to choose from. |
| IreneH1 | I'm at the age when where it's out of town and in the evening, I won't go anymore unless someone else is driving ;-) I was lucky to have our State Archaeologist come to town last and give us a talk. (us meaning the local historical society) |
| Kris Hirst | does it seem to you all that more of the public--and the younger people--are getting involved in archaeology? |
| Dick | not from what I see, Kris. Perhaps it's a question of available time, but most of our members are retired |
| pgloss | Compared to numbers involved in other activities - numbers small except when someone issues an invitation for a one time project for all |
| Kris Hirst | yeah, I think that's true for our local societies as well |
| IreneH1 | We have the same problem at our historical society. In the past, a lot of woman didn't work for a living, and we had always plenty of younger volunteers. That's changed. |
| pgloss | Most younger volunteers show up on weekends |
| Dick | also, I think that amateurs are often made to feel like the "red headed step child" |
| Kris Hirst | that's too bad (about the red-heads). I know a lot of archaeologists don't want volunteers; and there are restrictions on some of the field work we do. But we can always give talks, and make sure that the stuff gets published. |
| pgloss | The "red-heads" haven't been a major problem here |
| Kris Hirst | I like talking to local people, anyway, no matter where I do field work. You guys (volunteers and the interested public) have a lot to teach us |
| Dick | have the rest of you encountered the attitude that amateur=collector=looter? |
| pgloss | I've run into would-be looters but have never been accused of being one. |
| Pat Garrow | she is coming back in |
| ............................ Judy Bense joined............. | |
| Pat Garrow | welcome back Judy!!! |
| IreneH1 | Here in Connecticut we have amateurs who keep insisting that the old roots cellars that are around here are Celtic religious sites... ;-) |
| Judy Bense | I'm baaaack.... I got booted off and have found another way to chat with you... sorry about that. |
| IreneH1 | Welcome back Judy! |
| Pat Garrow | you mentioned the Southern Company project earlier Judy. could you tell us more about that? |
| Judy Bense | The Southern Company wanted a new headquarters building here in Pensacola, but I had been told that there were prehistoric and historic deposits there. so I approached the company in 1084 with an unsolicited proposal. The executives were leery, but willing. We found a wonderful site and they loved it! |
| IreneH1 | My last question to you was how archaeologists from other institutions react to your program. |
| Judy Bense | Irene, my professional friends constantly ask how do we get the public interested. They are envious of all the help. No problems with credibility. |
| IreneH1 | Good! |
| Pat Garrow | how did you involve the public in the Southern Company project, Judy? |
| Judy Bense | I started involving the public by first involving the employees. Then through the exhibits in their beautiful lobby. Then a "school" package... then the press caught wind of it. |
| Judy Bense | The end of that story is the Gulf Power Company won the first National Public Service Award from the Dept of Interior. Flew to Washington, took press corps... LOVED it! |
| Pat Garrow | The report you did for the public on the Southern Company project remains one of the best reports of its type in American archaeology. how widely has your approach been copied? |
| Judy Bense | The board of directors of Southern company still consider it the best money they ever spent. |
| Pat Garrow | I bet they do. best PR that could be had |
| Judy Bense | I really don't know how much it has been copied, but I think it has been a lot. I see elements of the approach and report in many, many projects. I think my colleagues saw that good archaeology must be the basis for good public archaeology. The connection was strong and makes it reliable and VERY fundable. |
| Kris Hirst | While you were off line, we talked about how the volunteer and amateur societies are often restricted to older people--retirees; your approach sounds like it would bring in a broader group of people. Does it? |
| Judy Bense | Kris: Most of our volunteers are actually retired, some are in the 70's. In fact I am giving a high tech paper at the Florida meetings soon with one of our volunteers... he's 75. But there is the mix of ages, especially in the summer. But the main core is over 50 and that's fine with me. |
| pgloss | To get younger people, the program has to include at least one weekend day -- at least here. |
| Dick | I would like to read your public report, can you give us the citation |
| Judy Bense | The report I wrote for the Gulf Power company is called "Hawkshaw" call 850-474-3015 for a free copy. Also, call your State Historic Preservation Office... they have many. Florida's Division of Historical Resources 850-477-2333 will get you a bunch |
| IreneH1 | Do you think such publicity will generate more financial sponsors in general? |
| IreneH1 | I should have said attract rather than "generate" |
| Judy Bense | Publicity generates money. It is a simple, powerful fact. The archaeology program here us built on publicity. I keep it pumping out and keep the press involved and part of archaeology. I have a twice-daily public radio one-minute spot ("Unearthing Pensacola") and it is VERY popular. |
| Pat Garrow | I had the honor to work with some of your volunteers in Pensacola a couple of weeks ago. I must say they worked hard and well |
| Judy Bense | Pat: What you experienced in St. Michael's cemetery here was the mix of grad students, undergrads, professionals, press, trained volunteers and just plain folks. They really learned a lot from you also. |
| Pat Garrow | Your provided a good group of people for that project. Really enjoyed working with them |
| Pat Garrow | Can you tell us a little about your academic program at UWF? |
| Judy Bense | UWF has an undergraduate program in Anthropology and Archeology and a Masters in Historical Archaeology. We have about 45 undergrads and 35 grad students. Our biggest problem is keeping the students until they finished. Everyone wants to hire them away from us. |
| Pat Garrow | we sure do |
| Judy Bense | We have 7 archaeologists, 4 cultural anthros, and are hiring a new Bioanthropologist. What is special, though, is that they get their hands dirty all the time... we have 5-10 projects going on at any one time and students are the heart and soul of each one. |
| Judy Bense | What we don't have is an "Ivy Tower" We are in the street downtown on 2 projects right now and finding Colonial Pensacola right in the middle of the street and in parking lots. Keeps surprising everyone. |
| Pat Garrow | how do you recruit your students Judy? |
| Judy Bense | We recruit through our publicity mainly, Pat. Also, students tell other students... they keep coming. Also our students participate in all the professional meetings, we are "seen". |
| Pat Garrow | The Archaeology Institute has one of the finest facilities I have seen. Would you care to tell us a bit about that? |
| Judy Bense | Well, they can "see" the institute at UWF.edu/archaeology; but we have a brand new "palace" right at the front gate of campus. It has a large exhibit area in the public area with lots of our "best" artifacts (cannon, shipwreck things, and much more.) It also has offices, a lab, and state of the art computer graphics and systems |
| Pat Garrow | Incredible facility and state of the art everything. How did you build that? |
| Judy Bense | The Archaeology Institute has 2 very special things about it, though. first, one of our volunteers bequested UWF archaeology her estate, and we matched her money and built a new "home" for the Institute. Second, it is the only state building dedicated to archaeology in Florida. |
| Judy Bense | The volunteer's name was Margaret J. Smith and the building is named after her |
| IreneH1 | Were you the first in the country to start Public Archaeology? If so, what gave you the idea? |
| Judy Bense | Irene, I was actually one of the first. Pam Cressey in Alexandria, Va. Archaeology was earlier and taught me a huge amount, especially about how to get archaeology ordinances and policies passed locally. But I think I was the first academic to incorporate public archaeology. It has been the secret ingredient to our academic program. |
| Kris Hirst | do you teach public archaeology as well? |
| Pat Garrow | Remains one of the few academic programs to incorporate public archaeology at any scale Judy |
| pgloss | How do you get access to your sites, Judy - through local government, or do you approach property owners directly as an educational institution or??? |
| Judy Bense | pgloss: I get access they old fashioned way. I ask the landowner |
| Judy Bense | The sites that we work on are on a variety of property types. with all the leasing of rural property to hunting clubs, we are having to get much more permissions now than before. |
| pgloss | Interesting - here landowners are cautious because historic site designation are used by anti-growth groups as an argument against rezoning |
| Judy Bense | pgloss: landowners here are also cautious. But they also are curious and through all our publicity, know they can trust us. |
| Pat Garrow | tell us a little about your underwater projects Judy |
| Judy Bense | Pensacola Bay has many, many shipwrecks from the colonial days to today. The bay has a naturally open pass and early European countries placed settlements here because they could reach them by ship for resupply and trade. |
| Pat Garrow | what types of wrecks has your program worked on? |
| Judy Bense | We have actually excavated (of course with students, professionals and volunteers) Luna's 1559 shipwreck, an early 18th century sailing ship (1705), a late 19th century ship and now, a 20th century yacht lost in a hurricane. |
| Pat Garrow | that is quite a time span! |
| IreneH1 | Our state archaeologist here in CT told us that there are many old shipwrecks on the New England coast too and predicted underwater archaeology was going to be the big thing in the next ten years. |
| Pat Garrow | is the demand for underwater archaeologists increasing Judy? |
| Judy Bense | shipwreck archaeology is huge! It has made a big difference in our publicity and student interest. Each of our grad students in maritime archaeology gets a shipwreck for their thesis, and they are flocking here. My university president loves it. In fact, this summer I am operating a "tour yacht" (donated last year) on Fridays to see our shipwreck excavations out in Pensacola Bay. It is beginning to be "the" thing to do. Can't beat it for public interest |
| Pat Garrow | you certainly have strong underwater professionals on your staff |
| Judy Bense | Irene: There are thousands of shipwrecks off New England. I have been wondering why there is so little archaeology being done. Do you know why? |
| IreneH1 | Beats me! But at least they are starting now. Same as African-American site excavations didn't take off until recently hereabouts. |
| Judy Bense | Irene: Maybe you water is too cold? Just kidding. |
| IreneH1 | LOL |
| IreneH1 | Most of the Connecticut coast is along Long Island Sound. |
| Kris Hirst | does underwater archaeology pose special problems for working with the public? |
| Pat Garrow | ------money----- |
| Judy Bense | We have 2 shipwreck archaeologists on our staff; Drs. Bratten and Cozzi,. They plus a strong marine support person keep our students and volunteers safe. |
| Judy Bense | Yes, Pat. Underwater archaeology is expensive. Much more so than terrestrial. and much more unpredictable. |
| IreneH1 | Much more difficult, I'd guess than in the more quiet waters - so to speak - of the Sound. |
| Pat Garrow | tell us about your Southeastern Archaeology textbook Judy |
| Judy Bense | I taught Archaeology of the Southeast for years with handouts and overheads and it was a mess! I kept waiting for someone to write a decent textbook, but they did not. so, since I love Southeastern Archaeology, I wrote it in 1994. It was well received. Anyone can still buy it. amazon.com and Barnes and Nobles.com have them in stock |
| Pat Garrow | have a copy in front of me. very well done |
| IreneH1 | Is there anything specific in Southeastern archaeology? [that may be a dumb question] |
| Judy Bense | I use the textbook myself all the time (who can remember all that stuff) and it is a good place to start for undergraduates and people new to the Southeast. |
| Judy Bense | Irene: the TWA800 recovery and analysis from Long Island Sound was a lesson in underwater archaeology! |
| IreneH1 | That was in the other side of the island, in the Atlantic. |
| Kris Hirst | I didn't realize there were archaeologists involved in that |
| Judy Bense | No archeologists were involved in TWA 800. But it was an archaeological process, and an excellent one. |
| IreneH1 | Makes sense to me, the process must be same |
| Pat Garrow | archaeologists have been involved in some crash sites. Adovasio involved his students in one at Pittsburgh years ago |
| Judy Bense | Interesting, Pat. I didn't know that Adovasio did that. The scene is an excellent one for archaeological methods and analyses. We are actually getting into forensics now in our program and I hope to begin to do some "recent" work. |
| Pat Garrow | from what I understand, most of his students never wanted to do that again though |
| IreneH1 | I guess it's one thing to work with skeletons... |
| Judy Bense | I can relate to the difficulty of a crash site and human remains and their personal things. The US has archaeologists working on a regular basis in the POW MIA sites in southeast Asia, Bosnia mass murder investigations and elsewhere. |
| Kris Hirst | Argentina and Chile, I think, too. Rwanda |
| Pat Garrow | El Salvador as well |
| Pat Garrow | high demand for well trained forensic archaeologists/anthropologists |
| Kris Hirst | I'm with Pat, my impression is there is a great deal of interest in forensic archaeology these days |
| Pat Garrow | crash sites are the worst from what I understand |
| Judy Bense | Two of of our archaeology graduates (BA and MA) each work for a local county in forensics. Good job market, Pat, you're right. It is by far the largest major in Criminal Justice field. We're linking to them as we speak |
| Kris Hirst | now, there is one kind of archaeology you probably don't have a lot of public invited to |
| Judy Bense | I really haven't thought about that, but I bet it would not be as easy to get the public interested in these sites! |
| Pat Garrow | you have another interesting book in print. tell us about your Pensacola Archaeology book |
| Judy Bense | My second book is about "Colonial Pensacola" 1750-1821 (Univ. Fla. Press) and it pulls together 17 different contract and research projects in downtown Pensacola. Third one just wen to press in January on the Early Spanish Presidio Santa Maria 1698-1719. |
| Pat Garrow | had a local archaeological society help with a bulldozed cemetery her in Atlanta Judy with recent graves. they really got into it |
| IreneH1 | How far back into ancient times do Florida finds go? |
| Pat Garrow | saw the draft manuscript for the third when I was in Pensacola. links substantial; |
| Judy Bense | The public is fascinated how we pull information out of the ground and make sense of it. In forensics, with recent cases, it is doubly fascinating to really get to address what happened or who "did it". |
| Pat Garrow | I believe the public is fascinated with almost anything we do, but then that is the secret of your success |
| Judy Bense | You are right, Pat. I credit my mother with getting me to "talk" about archaeology. When I speak to to public as I do so often, I share with them what it is really like and that's all it takes. |
| Kris Hirst | Do you teach public archaeology? At the MA level? |
| Judy Bense | Kris: I do teach public archaeology at the graduate level, but by doing it, not in a formal course. I involve students in press conferences, interviews, training volunteers, doing TV, public talks... the whole scene. They get to "know" public archaeology. |
| Kris Hirst | We don't really have "directed" MAs here in the states; could you see a point to having a public archaeology MA degree, as they do in some schools in England? |
| Pat Garrow | isn't the England public archaeology MA more like a CRM thing? |
| Kris Hirst | I think they call that "heritage management", but you could be right; I've only seen the listings |
| Judy Bense | Archaeology education in the UK, as I understand it is focused on Archaeology, not anthropology. Because of that, I think Public Archaeology where you are could easily be a major and a degree plan, similar to our Historic Preservation programs here. The graduates would be snapped up! |
| Judy Bense | "Heritage Management" sounds familiar. But Public archaeology as we have been discussing it is different. |
| IreneH1 | Is that generally true for Europe, Judy, that focus on archaeology rather than anthropology? |
| Judy Bense | The US is the only country with Anthropological Archaeology. The "Old world" focuses on Archaeology and lets other do Social Anthropology and Human Evolution. They are not in the same departments nor educated in those fields. We are the more comprehensively educated archeologists ever. |
| Dick | does the university recognize public archeology to the same extant as peer reviewed journals for tenure track? |
| Judy Bense | when I started public archaeology, my colleagues tried to get me to stop because they thought it would hinder my promotion and tenure. It only enhanced it. Of course, I make sure that I publish with peer review and in the mainstream pressed along with the traditional technical reports, brochures, and booklets. |
| Pat Garrow | the Public Education Committee of SAA has taken a long look at the questions of public education and its effect on tenure, but that has mainly involved professionals without your research and publication background |
| Kris Hirst | how has the web changed that pattern? or has it? |
| Judy Bense | Actually the Web has not changed the promotion and tenure process. Still have to be mainstream publications and peer reviewed. But as Web publishing reaches that level, then it will be accepted. Added to the existing items that will count. |
| Judy Bense | I have really made it a point to publish, for many reasons. One is to bring credibility to public archaeology. It is a wonderful means to producing information, but the publishing step has to be made it one is to get academic credentials and credibility, |
| IreneH1 | What about Oezti? That would fall into the anthropology part, or? The Austrians had to go to Germany for the forensic part, I understand. |
| Judy Bense | Irene: What is Oezti? Is it the Iceman? |
| IreneH1 | Yes. They call him Oetzi in Europe because he was found in the Oeztal Alps. |
| IreneH1 | Oetztal |
| IreneH1 | That name really falls into the realm of public archaeology ;-) |
| Judy Bense | The Iceman project is a good example of the fractionalization of Anthropology in Europe. Our Anthropology departments (the good ones) would have faculty or staff with at least working knowledge and connections to handle it. But boy, those politics over there,! |
| IreneH1 | But at least they work across the borders <grin> |
| Pat Garrow | we have five minutes left. anyone have more questions? |
| Judy Bense | As a parting note, I'd like to encourage all of you to do MORE public archaeology. It pays. |
| Kris Hirst | thanks very much for putting up with the technical glitches, everybody--especially Judy! |
| IreneH1 | Thank you very much for giving us your time, Judy! Most interesting! |
| Judy Bense | Hey, getting bumped off twice got my system going on Sunday night! I really enjoyed it and I sure wish I could type better and faster. |
| Pat Garrow | Our guest next Sunday will be Bill Kelso, the Principal Investigator of the Jamestown Fort excavation. Please join us then. |
| Judy Bense | It has been my pleasure to be here, everyone. It was a very pleasant "first" for me. I'll notify my students and volunteers that it is something they should participate in! |
| Pat Garrow | please join us again Judy. Great job! |
| .............. Log stopped at Sun Mar 25 20:03:24 PST 2001 ........... |