Weekly Chat from About Archaeology
Moderated by Pat Garrow and K. Kris Hirst
Transcript: May 20, 2001: Speaker Mike Polk (Sagebrush Consulting) and Charlie LeeDecker (Louis Berger Group)
Note: This transcript has been slightly edited for readability. Because of a technical glitch, Mr. LeeDecker's responses were telephoned into Kris Hirst, who typed them for him.
Printer-Friendly Chat Transcript
| Pat Garrow | Our guests tonight are Mike Polk and Charlie LeeDecker. Mike is the President of Sagebrush Consulting, and Charlie is a Senior Archaeologist with the Louis Berger Group. Welcome Mike and Charlie | |
| Mike Polk | Thank you, Pat, it's good to be here | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | thanks | |
| Pat Garrow | I would like for each of you to tell us a little about yourselves. Where were you educated, how long have you been in archaeology, and where are you based? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've been in the field since 1976, fresh out of graduate school at George Washington University and been in DC for 25 years | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | but have worked out in the Midwest but always been based in the DC area | |
| Mike Polk | I have been in the field since the early 1970s. I received my BA from San Diego State University in Anthropology. | |
| Mike Polk | I went to Idaho State University for two years of graduate school, but completed my MA at Michigan State University y in Anthropology in 19799 | |
| Pat Garrow | what is your work history Charlie? What about yours Mike? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | got tangled up with Pat Garrow back in the early 1980s and that turned out to be some of my favorite sites | |
| Pat Garrow | lol Charlie--tangled up indeed. Charlie and I worked for the same firm until 83 | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Based in the east if you don't develop an interest in historical archaeology it's a hard row to hoe | |
| Mike Polk | I am based out of Ogden, Utah, where both my wife, Ann, and I operate our business, Sagebrush Consultants, L.L.C. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the area is very rich in historical archaeology | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I am primarily a historical archaeologist, and I have more interest in it, get more excited about it | |
| Pat Garrow | How did you each first become involved in archaeology? | |
| Mike Polk | I worked for the Arizona State Museum in the early 70s, for the Bureau of Land Management as an archaeologist in Oregon in 1975-76 and then worked several years during Graduate school at Michigan State in the late 70s. In the early 80s I worked for Environment Consultants out of Dallas, Texas and opened an office for them in Ogden in 1983. | |
| Pat Garrow | diverse background Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | this is a long story.... | |
| Pat Garrow | plenty of time | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I was right there in DC when what we used to call the Moss Bennett Act was passed. Took a field school in archaeology and just loved it. It was just starting up--Paleoindian Shawnee Minnisink site | |
| Irene H. | What is the Moss Bennett Act? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | That is the archaeological and historical protection act of 1974 | |
| Pat Garrow | Moss Bennett Act authorized federal agencies to spend up to 1% of their project budget on archaeology | |
| Mike Polk | Our office here was closed in 1983 leaving me stranded with many choices. Both my wife (also an archaeologist) decided to open our own company, Sagebrush Archaeological Consultants, which later became Sagebrush Consultants, L.L.C. | |
| Pat Garrow | 1983 was a bad year all over the country for CRM | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | yeah, that was the start of the Reagan revolution | |
| Pat Garrow | wife and I started our firm in 1983 | |
| Mike Polk | Yea, and we didn't really understand the problems that we might encounter in our own business until 1986 when the oil business took a nosedive. | |
| Pat Garrow | that was also the year that Soil Systems got out of the business | |
| Mike Polk | We almost went under that year. We had to diversify fast by taking many jobs that we normally would not. | |
| Irene H. | What's going to happen under Bush II? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | that's a good question, Irene | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | what I hear is we're going to have a lot more gas pipelines | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've seen a splurge in activity in cell phone towers and I think the next growth will be gas pipelines | |
| Mike Polk | I suspect you are correct. We certainly see a lot of that going on here already. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the whole industry has really changed a lot since the early 1980s. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Berger was working a lot for the developers in the 1980s but we hardly do any work at all for them now | |
| Pat Garrow | energy-related work will be hot for the next 5 years or so | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I could tell you about all the development work in lower Manhattan in the early 1980s but that doesn't happen any more | |
| Pat Garrow | so could I re Manhattan Charlie! | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I sort of wonder that with Bush directing the energy industry to fast-track the work, I wonder what that will do for the environmental review process | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think Bush's fast tracking will be on the construction of nuclear power plants now | |
| Pat Garrow | I think we are ok on the environmental fast track deal. we don't stop jobs. a little time and money | |
| Irene H. | There are no rules when something gets discovered during construction? | |
| Pat Garrow | there are Irene, but construction companies generally stay quiet | |
| Mike Polk | To me, cultural resource management encompasses a broad range of issues revolving around protection, identification, recordation and understanding of archaeological, ethnographic, historic, and architectural resources. | |
| Pat Garrow | all are certainly interrelated Mike | |
| Kris Hirst | has Bush made any changes to the Executive Orders as of yet and is that going to be a threat? | |
| Mike Polk | We had an interesting debate about this very subject on ACRA-L recently, when some people said that "cultural resource management" is only dealt with by land managing archaeologists, not anyone else's, not | |
| Pat Garrow | that is fairly narrow though Mike. CRM is certainly dealt with by a number of disciplines | |
| Mike Polk | Yes, indeed. I agree, but there are quite a few diverse opinions out there. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I don't think Bush is tinkering with any things to date; the big change he has made to date has been the repetitive motion | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I don't think CRM is on his radar screen yet | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | but wait until some nuclear power or pipeline gets delayed by some sacred burial ground, and then we'll find out | |
| Pat Garrow | Bush has to be astute enough to understand the emotional power of the burial issue though | |
| Irene H. | Are you sure? I wouldn't bet on it... | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Pat I don't give Bush much credit for astuteness at this point! sorry | |
| Mike Polk | No, but he certainly has people in his administration who are. | |
| Pat Garrow | Neither do I Charlie, but he has backed off occasionally when badly singed | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | that's true, Pat, he will back off | |
| Pat Garrow | it is important to remember that we have recourse through data recovery on project. Even grave can be dealt with and are | |
| Kris Hirst | What's the effect going to be on the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation? | |
| Pat Garrow | Advisory Council role already diminished a great deal | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Kris, in response to your question, I don't see much happening with the ACHP, but if there are new regs giving emphasis on public involvement, I hope that archaeologists can reach a broader audience than just talking themselves | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | interpretation and public involvement, not just data recovery | |
| Pat Garrow | CRM archaeologists have long been criticized by academic archaeologists as not contributing to research. anyone want to comment on that one? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I would comment on it, but that criticism is so old that most of the new data and new methodology has come straight out of CRM | |
| Kris Hirst | Yeah, like all the information about Cahokia in the American bottom is all CRM | |
| Pat Garrow | sure has Charlie, yet that old attitude lingers in some quarters | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | are you still hearing that kind of criticism? I haven't heard that stuff since the 70s | |
| Pat Garrow | time to time Charlie. nothing is ever forgotten in the South | |
| P. Gloss | Doesn't that have to do with their reports not generally being widely available? | |
| Pat Garrow | that is part of the problem pgloss | |
| Mike Polk | Yes, and academic archaeologists are generally not interested in providing to the public what they need in order to justify support of the field, whether it is through tax payer dollars for CRM or taxpayer dollars for academic programs (or even NSF grants) | |
| Pat Garrow | true Mike. I have always believed that all archaeology is research | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | you know it's interesting. when I see the programs for various archaeology months, the speakers, the feature projects are very much oriented toward CRM, you get some of the state programs, you rarely rarely see any academic input, at least not in the south | |
| Pat Garrow | how so re the archaeology months Charlie? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | you get input from St. Mary's City, Jamestown project, those are non-profit firms, not academic | |
| Pat Garrow | certainly the money for the posters and such comes from CRM companies | |
| Irene H. | How much state support and funding does CRM get in general? | |
| Mike Polk | CRM professionals (including historians and architectural historians as well as archaeologists) are beginning to get a clue that we need to help educate the public about the field. There are millions of people who love what we do, but what we produce often cannot reach them. | |
| Pat Garrow | that is a tough issue to be sure Mike. The SAA and SHA have begun to address public education in meaningful ways, but we need a lot more | |
| Mike Polk | In the West, I don't know that much money for posters comes from CRM firms, Pat. I know in Utah it is Federal agencies like BLM, USFS and NPS contribute most. | |
| Pat Garrow | really Mike? it is mainly firms here in the east | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've seen a tremendous amount of public interpretation in the mid Atlantic, particularly in the last three years | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the question was about state support, but we mostly get federal dollars, not state and even when the states have grants, for historic preservation they're usually spending federal dollars | |
| Mike Polk | It is really beginning to take off in many areas of the country and that can only be good news for the whole CRM profession. | |
| <dick> | the Midwest has little CRM input in archeology week/month | |
| Kris Hirst | I would disagree with you there, dick | |
| Mike Polk | I think that is a good idea, Pat. I know I am solicited for money for them, but I don't think much comes in to support them. | |
| Pat Garrow | most money in CRM is project driven Irene. Much more private that public money being spent | |
| Mike Polk | Of course, the only reason that private money is spent is due to public laws! | |
| Irene H. | Pat, where does the private money come from? | |
| Pat Garrow | developers, utilities, anyone doing projects that require federal permitting or involves federal money in any form | |
| P. Gloss | Don't state agencies doing construction - particularly with Federal $, - use CRM? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | they do a little bit, but not to the scale that federal agencies do | |
| Pat Garrow | state departments of transportation spend the most at the state level pgloss | |
| <GrantQ> | yeah, our tax dollars are put to something useful | |
| Mike Polk | However, I think that the better educated the public, the more money will be authorized and the more private money (outside of that required by law) will be forthcoming. | |
| Pat Garrow | agree that public education is the key. what form should public education and outreach take? | |
| Mike Polk | I believe there is room for a wide variety of products | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I'd like to add Pat and Mike if they see SHPOs putting more pressure on CRM firms to do public involvement plans as part of the 106 process | |
| Pat Garrow | yes there is increased pressure Charlie. some states are doing a good job of it | |
| Mike Polk | I know that videos and colorful brochures have been very popular with agencies and the public in California | |
| Irene H. | What's SHPO? I'm the lay person here | |
| Pat Garrow | State Historic Preservation Officer | |
| Irene H. | Thanks | |
| Pat Garrow | I rather favor public consumption reports and videos | |
| Mike Polk | I am on a task force in Utah right now where we are looking at encouragement of CRM companies and agencies to do more of that | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've found it varies widely, some states aren't interested even at the interpretation point, while other states want you to do public involvement at every step of the process | |
| Pat Garrow | public education should be required on all data recovery projects | |
| <GrantQ> | yeah, I agree. Especially if the $ for the project is coming from taxes. The person unfamiliar with archaeology can see a brochure or booklet about the project and know that their tax dollars have been spent on something that is helping to preserve/interpret local history. | |
| Pat Garrow | Delaware is doing a particularly good job with public education | |
| Mike Polk | We are currently working with a water conservancy district locally to construct a kiosk with the history and archaeology related to a pipeline and hydroelectric plant. It will be placed in a county park adjacent to the pipeline. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I would comment Pat and Mike that my experience has been that there has been no single public, in fact there are many different publics: some of them can look at a poster for five minutes, some want to go to a site and help excavate for a day, some will read our lengthy reports, some will come to speakers, some will get information off the Internet | |
| Pat Garrow | true Charlie. Good point | |
| Mike Polk | Absolutely, Charlie, that is why a wide range of approaches is needed. | |
| Pat Garrow | so how can we do better? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | We just have to keep on doing it. I've done kiosks, too--and they've never been vandalized! | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | knock on wood | |
| Mike Polk | I think that we need to look outside of our profession and see what is working elsewhere. That is why the videos are doing so well in California - Jones and Stokes is doing them for the Corps of Engineers on many projects, particularly on military bases being closed down. | |
| Pat Garrow | we have done exhibits, thrown sites open for guided tours, done brochures, videos, and public consumption reports and many TV, radio, and newspaper interviews. It all works | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Mike, are these videos distributed commercially? how many copies and how are they distributed? | |
| Kris Hirst | do you guys know about The Archaeology Channel? | |
| Kris Hirst | it's a site that distributes over the internet free archaeology videos | |
| Pat Garrow | only that it does or will exist Kris | |
| Mike Polk | I am not certain about distribution, Pat. I saw some of the brochures being given away at the SHA meetings in Long Beach last January. | |
| Kris Hirst | The Archaeology Channel will help you produce videos, for the living expenses of the videographer | |
| Pat Garrow | I did home made posters for one urban site to report weekly progress to the public. They were all stolen, so someone liked them | |
| Irene H. | I have to say where I live, in Southern Connecticut, ecological land preservation gets a lot of public support, but history nada | |
| Kris Hirst | I don't know how long they'll stay in business, they're having trouble with funding like everybody else on the Internet | |
| Mike Polk | I don't know that we are at a point where we are doing stuff that will make money. That may never happen, which may always relegate us to being subsidized. | |
| Pat Garrow | I would like to think that material on archaeology has commercial value, but I am not sure either Mike | |
| Mike Polk | There are enough of the public interested in the field that there will hopefully always be some money for our work (knock on wood). | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Kris, you were at the Office of the State Archaeologist in Iowa. did they do much public archaeology? | |
| Kris Hirst | They actually did quite a bit. We were encouraged to make public talks whenever we were out in the state, and we were also encouraged to get in contact with the local amateur society | |
| Pat Garrow | there is more money being spent on CRM at this moment than ever before | |
| Mike Polk | Certainly the National Geographics of the world can turn a buck, but when we do more mundane things, its hard to imagine that we will find funding for it all. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I live in Fairfax County, Virginia; the project I just started working on a week or two ago, those sites were first excavated in the early 1980s | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | they had a crew of 27 volunteers then show up; I can't get that big of crew if you paid them | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | one of the crew told me, and they weren't finding hardly anything (in the 1980s) | |
| Irene H. | Our state archaeologist is very eager to go out and give talks. he is also very good at it. | |
| Mike Polk | And Pat, that fact can be a bit disconcerting. As long as we are low profile and not noticed ( by Congress and the administration), we are likely to survive. The bigger we become as a profession, the more justification we will need to make for ourselves. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | so there is a great interest on the part of the public | |
| P. Gloss | In Northern Virginia both Alexandria & Fairfax County have active public archaeology programs | |
| P. Gloss | Also several historic sites use volunteers | |
| Pat Garrow | the public education aspect is very important, but let's explore another subject for a few minutes | |
| Pat Garrow | what about the aspect of training for CRM professionals? Do you think it is getting better, staying the same, or getting worse? | |
| Pat Garrow | do either of you have a hard time finding young professionals who have actually been prepared to do CRM? | |
| Mike Polk | Do you mean academically? | |
| Pat Garrow | yes Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | This is one of the favorite whipping boys in my profession; bash the academics for not turning out slaves (low paid, fresh out of grad school labor) | |
| Pat Garrow | maybe Charlie, but an important topic | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | It's harder than it was 20 years ago | |
| Pat Garrow | how so Charlie? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think the demographics have changed a lot | |
| Mike Polk | Ahhh, Pat, there is a definite rub for me. It is getting very difficult to find quality people. And the problems are not just writing and other skills. I find more attitudinal problems too. | |
| Irene H. | what attitudinal problem, Mike? | |
| Pat Garrow | I am experiencing the same problem | |
| Mike Polk | I have come to the conclusion that if I can find someone with a modicum of skills and a degree with a good work ethnic, that I can have a good employee. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think in the 80s it was true that a lot of kids were in business schools, and in the 90s, people wanted to make a million on the internet | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | While in the 60s and 70s people were really drawn by the romance. As far as the quality of the student, it's hard to compare | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I have not done that much hiring lately. | |
| Pat Garrow | we still get fresh graduates with stars in their eyes Charlie, but the basic preparation has not improved, and it is hard to find anyone who can write | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | But, it's really hard to find people who know how to write anymore | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | A lot of kids coming out of school are really skilled at GIS and the general computer skills, while making sense in paragraphs is a major shortcoming for a lot of the grads now | |
| Pat Garrow | yet we have people coming in with computer training who cannot use basic programs like Word and excel | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | hmm. | |
| Mike Polk | I am having problems with people's sense of the field. I know that we are maturing as a profession, but we are not the computer companies and CRM is not where you will find riches and fame. It's a place to do something that you really love to do and actually make a living at it. | |
| Pat Garrow | I see that as well Mike. | |
| Mike Polk | People with good writing skills has always been tough for me to find. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I find there's still a lot of kids in graduate school who want to stay in academia--apparently they love archaeology, and there are still jobs there for those | |
| Irene H. | Mike, I see that a lot parents try to push their kids into "money making" professions | |
| Mike Polk | Yes, that's true, Irene. I guess I might do that too. I guess it depends on what you want out of life. | |
| Pat Garrow | and yet there are hundreds of applicants for each advertised academic position. It is my observation that students are being trained to do jobs that do not exist | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think that's true, Pat. what I've tried to do is go to local universities and set up internships | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | a lot of the schools, grad schools would love to put an intern in a company like mine | |
| Pat Garrow | One of my sons went into CRM and works for my company. that pleases me in a very real way | |
| Pat Garrow | has that worked Charlie? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Pat; no we haven't been able to make the internship work | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | To plan an internship four months ahead, though is difficult--I don't think Pat or Mike or I know what we're going to be doing four months from now. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | This has been an unusual year | |
| Pat Garrow | internship has not worked for us either | |
| Mike Polk | I think there is still the mystique out there that a professorship is a far greater thing that a CRM professional and that you will be able to do far greater things in an academic institution. | |
| Pat Garrow | and yet Mike, academics teach all year to get to go in the field for 6 weeks or so each summer | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've been talking more regularly with the academic depts. and they know what I'm looking for in terms of skills in students | |
| Mike Polk | And that probably has much to do with who we learn from - our mentors were all professors, our textbooks are written by professors...so its natural to want to emulate them. | |
| P. Gloss | Isn't academic starting pay better than field tech pay? | |
| Pat Garrow | level for level that answer is no pgloss. CRM pays better | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | really, Pat? does CRM pay better than academic? | |
| Pat Garrow | yes Charlie, unless you are a tenured full professor at a tope school, and even then CRM at a comparable level can pay more | |
| Pat Garrow | how can academic train people for CRM when the professors do not understand CRM? | |
| Mike Polk | Very good point, Pat. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | CRM hires a lot of people with just a BA, too | |
| Mike Polk | We hire quite a few BA level people here, though I am always trying to find quality MA level people to run projects and take the load off of the senior staff. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I guess I've been sort of lucky in that one of the local universities, in their terminal degree, they don't expect their people to go into academia | |
| Mike Polk | But the prestige level (at least during the current generation) is far higher in academics and, I guess, there a lot of people who are willing to take less for that. However, Pat, there is still the thought that ""tenure"" will give you a life position. | |
| Pat Garrow | tenure may do that for some Mike. It would handcuff me. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | so some have seen the light that there are very few academic positions around | |
| <dick> | it seems to me that the university would offer the opportunity to really study what you love rather than looking only where the highway goes and therefore might be more attractive to some | |
| Pat Garrow | someone still has to pay for it though Dick | |
| Kris Hirst | I know a lot of "ghettoized" people in academics | |
| Kris Hirst | I mean people with PhDs who are teaching 5 or 6 courses a semester at two or three colleges and not making $35K a year | |
| Pat Garrow | I have always believed that archaeological research is fascinating in and of itself, and have enjoyed working on a broad range of site types | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I would agree with Pat, that you should follow your heart's desire, but where are you going to get the money for it? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | CRM provides an opportunity to study all kinds of different sites; I find it stimulating | |
| Mike Polk | As do I. | |
| Mike Polk | A few. I was very disappointed when I was brought back to my alma mater, Michigan State, a few years ago with other CRM professionals from there to speak to the graduate students. We got NO first or second year students to even talk to us - only the 3rd and 4th year students were interested, much to the disgust of the junior grad students' professors. Their professors know where the work is and that all of them will not get jobs in academia. | |
| Pat Garrow | CRM offers me that opportunity Charlie | |
| Pat Garrow | would have spent my life no other way | |
| Irene H. | Someone was talking ""romance"" before. Maybe it's perceived that there is no romance in CRM? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | plenty of romance out there to go around, Irene (lol) | |
| Pat Garrow | sure is Charlie, but we can't talk about that | |
| * IreneH | MOTIONS/playful.gif | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | lol | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I just never had the desire to think about teaching the same course year after year; proto-anthro, year after year after year | |
| Mike Polk | We all know part of the education process needs to be with academic professionals for they are who have the budding future archaeologists first | |
| Pat Garrow | I taught for 5 years. 5 miserable years | |
| Pat Garrow | have respect for those who can stay with teaching and remain good teachers. not my cup of tea | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | you know, I find that a lot of what I do now in my position is teaching, mentoring people who have already been through the academic program | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | and know about archaeology or prehistoric archaeology or industrial archaeology, but the idea that they are not fully trained when they get their academic degree is absurd | |
| Mike Polk | Absolutely, Charlie. A huge amount of teaching has to be done in our profession | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | even after being in the profession for 25 years, we're still learning everyday | |
| Irene H. | Charlie, I think that's true for almost any profession. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the people like me and Mike and Pat should be viewing ourselves as educators not just managers. | |
| Pat Garrow | that is what makes archaeology exciting Charlie | |
| Pat Garrow | we do each teach in many ways Charlie. it was the classroom and the repetitive lecture notes that got me down | |
| P. Gloss | Don't some academics also do contract work? | |
| Pat Garrow | less than in the past pgloss, but some do | |
| Mike Polk | Its fortunate that they don't actually. Then we get into another issue for CRM, the conflicts with non-profits, including universities. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | we have a fair amount of competition in Virginia with nonprofits | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the college of William and Mary is very active | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | My county (Fairfax) does a lot of "small jobs" work for developers that might go to CRM companies | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Virginia Commonwealth were very active up until a few years ago, and they're nonprofits | |
| Pat Garrow | the William and Mary program is directed by someone with a solid private sector background Charlie | |
| Mike Polk | What I don't care for is competing with a non-profit (usually a university) that I pay taxes to support (basically paying someone to compete against me). | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | there's a fair amount of competition among non profits; it's not always pretty | |
| Pat Garrow | Charlie and Mike--do you consciously mentor younger staff? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Pat, I do, mentor my staff | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I bring in books off my shelf and give them assignments to broaden their experience | |
| Pat Garrow | I think we all mentor our staff Charlie, and that is important | |
| Mike Polk | I do too, Pat, its certainly one of the things I find most important in my work. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | they usual gossip and office banter about "have you read this article" is an important part of the staff education | |
| Mike Polk | When I can, I help them get to meetings and do other things to broaden their horizon in the field. | |
| Mike Polk | It's pretty easy to get tunnel vision when working in CRM and not even seeing what other people are doing. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I guess we all enjoy that kind of mentoring, it's just that none of us enjoys being English grammarians | |
| Mike Polk | That is so true. I am just about to hire an editor, unfortunately, largely for that reason. | |
| Pat Garrow | if you have had problem finding staff who can write, just wait until you try to hire an editor | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | that's a terrifying remark, pat | |
| Pat Garrow | sorry Charlie, but true | |
| Mike Polk | It sure is. I haven't had an editor before. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | we've had professional editors at Berger for years and it's taken a number of years for them to recognized faulty archaeology. We've trained them to identify inconsistencies between text and tables, to do the fact checking and content checking | |
| Mike Polk | It's why we have considered the ideal office manager and editor to be an archaeologist with a broken leg, i.e. one who knows the field but doesn't want to or can't go into the field any longer. | |
| Pat Garrow | If we do not mentor staff they don't get the training they need to do their jobs. It takes about 2 years for a mid level staff member to learn their job and become fully functional for our firm | |
| Mike Polk | Good point, Pat. For me, its about 2-3 years before I'm comfortable that a person is able to go out and do the job that I need them to do. | |
| Mike Polk | We have the additional burden, here, of being sure that they are "Permitable" on BLM and USFS lands. | |
| Pat Garrow | that is part of the problem Charlie. also, archaeological type names and jargon can be a problem. we had one who went back and hyphenated all of the pottery and point names | |
| Pat Garrow | We have had an editor for 15 years | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | broken leg! a career path to being an editor | |
| Mike Polk | Home grown, probably, eh? | |
| Pat Garrow | not the same one for 15 years, though | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | so what issues are people seeing as far as OSHA? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | is that an issue seen only on urban sites? | |
| Mike Polk | Ha, that wasn't even on the radar screen 5-10 years ago. Its certainly become so these days. | |
| Pat Garrow | OSHA rules are clear and we follow them. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | or are people becoming more aware of health and safety issues, keeping them from getting Lyme disease? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | is our profession mature, are we really making more efforts to keep our people healthy? | |
| Pat Garrow | OSHA is a factor everywhere | |
| Irene H. | ...or West Nile | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | those are very positive developments | |
| Pat Garrow | hazardous materials on archaeological sites has also become a big issue | |
| Mike Polk | I think that professionals are seeing the need, if for nothing else than to stay legal and avoid penalties | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | does that mean that Pat and Mike are doing safety plans for projects? | |
| Pat Garrow | when they are required, yes | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Pat and Mike, when you send a crew out, do they have a safety plan, do they know where the nearest hospital is, know what deer ticks or hanta-bearing mice look like? is this routine for you guys? | |
| Mike Polk | I must admit that I am sometimes behind the curve somewhat in that - as a small company, its hard to keep up on everything. It s one of the advantages of being large. | |
| Pat Garrow | hanta bearing mice? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I don't know what the dangers are out west, but aren't there hanta-virus bearing rodents? | |
| Pat Garrow | none in the south | |
| Mike Polk | Yes- our people know about mice nests in rock shelters and the potential for such in buildings and elsewhere. | |
| Mike Polk | We have personnel who lead crews who are aware of what you speak - but there are new items on the agenda all the time. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Pat and Mike, anytime we send a crew out, if they're going to West Virginia, they need to know where the nearest hospital is in case they get cut by a machete | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | it's so easy to get a map to the nearest hospital off the internet | |
| Pat Garrow | true Charlie, and we do have written plans for projects where they are required | |
| Kris Hirst | I have to say that Berger has one of the best safety programs I've ever seen, archaeology or not | |
| Irene H. | Why are they getting cut by a machete in W. Virginia?;-) | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | the worst accident I ever had happen on a excavation was a machete accident, one of my crew got get because there weren't any sheaths on them | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | in fact, in west Virginia, I wouldn't do without a machete. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | seriously, it's so hard to recruit new people that you have to keep your old ones alive as long as possible | |
| Pat Garrow | we have fortunately never had a fatal accident pr even a very serious one Charlie in the 18 years our firm has been in operation | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | knock on wood, Pat | |
| Pat Garrow | one of our staff tried to use a machete like a cane when crossing a river in Puerto Rico with the expected results | |
| Pat Garrow | partially because it is hard to anticipate that anyone would try to use a machete like a can I suppose | |
| * IreneH | MOTIONS/playful.gif Well, that might get him the editor post | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | why don't they have a grad school class called "safety in the field"? | |
| Pat Garrow | We are down to the last 30 minutes, and I would like for us to use this time to talk about what we all see as the direction CRM will take in the next few years. Where are we going? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think we've hit a lot of the issues that we're going to be seeing, certainly in the areas of public interpretation and involvement. I hope | |
| Mike Polk | Well, as we spoke about earlier, I certainly see an increase in public oriented products and I see it as a very positive direction. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | We're going to continue to wrestle with our academic colleagues about training | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Hopefully we'll all live long and prosper and not be relegated to the editorial desk | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I would agree that the public involvement is very positive | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | We're going to be seeing a lot more internet-based publication, what we used to call grey literature | |
| Pat Garrow | I think that as the current crop of academics age and retire we might see some improvement in academic training | |
| Mike Polk | We absolutely are going to continue to struggle with academics and it will probably continue until the paradigm can get changed . As Kuhn spoke about his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" that will only occur when the current guard retires or dies. | |
| Pat Garrow | the internet certainly should be used more by CRM firms to distribute information | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | Well, some of us aren't very far from retirement, so maybe things will change in 10 years. | |
| Mike Polk | The Internet will be huge - It's virtually impossible to know how that will occur, but it will remake much of how we disseminate our products. | |
| Mike Polk | I think that data migration is now and will become an even more important issue in the future. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | we may even be doing our compliance stuff over the web, too | |
| Pat Garrow | I attended the Georgia Archaeological Council this weekend, and there was serious discussion about trying to put all CRM reports on CD disks for distribution | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | some states are selective about that, some reports are going on CD-ROM. | |
| Mike Polk | We are creating data in such quantities on such unstable mediums and those mediums are changing so rapidly that we are facing a crisis in trying to preserve all that we are producing today. | |
| Pat Garrow | good point Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | there are federal agencies now that are enterprise-based web systems where all of their documents will be available on the web, construction plans, everything | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I don't think it's that far off when our deliverables are going to be web based | |
| Pat Garrow | What direction will review and compliance take in the future? | |
| Mike Polk | I think that review and compliance will have to become more and more internet friendly. There is no way that we can continue to work with the current system, especially as volume increases | |
| Pat Garrow | I would like to thinks that reviews will be more rigorous in the future and that review agencies will become factors in further professionalizing our field | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think the professionalism of reviews is, I don't think that's going to be solved in the next ten years | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I would comment about unstable media, that that's true forever, it's a lot easier to lose a floppy disk than you think | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I assumed that the data on a floppy disk lasted forever and I was rudely surprised differently | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | now being told that CDs last for a hundred years, what are we going to believe in 10 years. | |
| Mike Polk | That is why libraries still only allow PERMANENT storage on microfilm or paper in their holdings | |
| Mike Polk | Actually, the National Archives says that CDs will only last 10 years or so | |
| P. Gloss | The CD may last but what about changes in the software to read it | |
| Pat Garrow | 10 years may be optimistic for CDs | |
| Irene H. | What you have to do is to convince the technical people to make transfer of media easy when new developments occur. | |
| Mike Polk | The trouble is, Irene, that so much material will not make the transfer and be left behind. | |
| Pat Garrow | we are creating so much paper and electronic files behind us Irene that conversions becomes almost impossible | |
| Mike Polk | Then we will need a museum of machines to get data up to current readable levels | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I've started that museum already, Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | if you need a machine with a 5 1/4 inch floppy drive, you know where to turn | |
| Mike Polk | LOL, I still have one on a currently operating machine in my office! | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | It comes down to this, we're competing for the same staff that the agencies are competing for. If we're having trouble finding people who can't write, they can't find people who can read. I'm more skeptical than Pat about getting reviews improved | |
| Pat Garrow | wish I could disagree Charlie, particularly when some states pay their reviewers less than we pay an entry level technician | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | That's what it comes down to, Pat | |
| Pat Garrow | do both of you see the current hot market continuing in CRM? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I do, really | |
| Pat Garrow | energy-related stuff mainly? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | although, I am worried that Bush's budget priorities took a lot of money out of transportation | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | he cut the transportation budget by 11 percent; I'm not sure where, but transportation has historically been the biggest sector, at least for Berger | |
| Pat Garrow | yeah-but we can still have the Key West meeting before that market crashes and burns :) | |
| Mike Polk | Other things about the future: I think that the field will continue to specialize - that it will be more and more difficult for generalists like myself to do work, though I think that generalists are vital to keeping the thinking alive and continuing to bring innovation and perspective | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | when I saw the budget numbers come out about the federal budgets; well, I don't see us doing much CRM for a space-based missile shield | |
| Mike Polk | Well, Pat, all of these things are cyclical. I think it will continue for a while, but there was quite a shake out in the field in the mid 80s and it will probably happen again. | |
| Pat Garrow | generalists have ruled CRM since at least 1976 when I first got involved in the private sector Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | generalists rule | |
| Mike Polk | And I certainly hope to see us continue that rule, Pat. | |
| Pat Garrow | and may it for the sake of all of us Mike | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think there's going to be a lot more work out west, if Bush is really going to open up the National Parks and Forests | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | and a lot of pipeline projects; I think there will be a shift to the west, the Bush/Cheney axis | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I don't see Bush putting money into urban settings. But is Bush going to be a one term or two term president? it's too early to tell. | |
| Pat Garrow | Charlie and Mike--are you still as excited about archaeology today as when you started your careers? | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | totally | |
| Mike Polk | I still love what I do - however, there are two things I do NOT like and never will (and they are the things all entrepreneurs dislike): personnel and cash flow problems. | |
| Pat Garrow | understand both problems well Mike, but have passed both problems on to others | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | that's something that anyone will ever learn in grad school, those two things, not in an anthro program. But as we grow older, those are the things we have to deal with. | |
| Mike Polk | Unfortunately, I don't see that I will be able to pursue many of the things that I really want to do in the field, however, until after I retire since these things don't have any money attached to them. | |
| Mike Polk | Well, that is one of the unfortunate aspects of a small company like ours (about 10-12 people). I end up doing both. | |
| Pat Garrow | I can honestly say that I want to keep doing what I am doing right now after I leave the company I work for. In fact that will be after Feb 2002 | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I guess that's one of the ironies of CRM, which is a business. As an archaeologist you get promoted to where you don't do too much archaeology anymore and then you're a business person | |
| Pat Garrow | I am an archaeologist in a business setting Charlie | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think Pat you have the best of a couple of worlds, there | |
| Mike Polk | I have at least 30 projects that I have collected through the years that I want to complete when I find the time. I won't stop doing what I do just because I don't do it actively as a money making venture. | |
| Mike Polk | I didn't realize that you were leaving that soon, Pat? | |
| Pat Garrow | thanks to my wife who is a great administrator you are absolutely right Charlie | |
| Pat Garrow | Feb 2002 Mike. my wife and I leave the company and move to Tennessee. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | you've had that date on your calendar for years, Pat! | |
| Pat Garrow | yes | |
| Mike Polk | Congratulations. I certainly wish you well and that you will enjoy what you do after you leave. | |
| Pat Garrow | thank you Mike | |
| Kris Hirst | I told Charlie you were planning on doing cell towers, Pat; he laughed | |
| Pat Garrow | nothing wrong with cell towers): | |
| Mike Polk | And so it begins - the retirement of the pioneer CRM profession | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | I think we'll being hearing from Pat after Feb 2002, but what that will be.... | |
| Pat Garrow | just buy my books and I will be happy | |
| Mike Polk | I have no doubt either, Charlie. | |
| Pat Garrow | we have come to the end of another Articulations. Thank you Mike and Charlie for joining us this evening. Our next chat will be in two weeks at the same time and place | |
| <dick> | Thank you Mike and Charlie for sharing your CRM thoughts! | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | is there a subject for the next one? | |
| Mike Polk | Thank you Pat and all who have joined in the conversation and to just listen in. | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | thanks for inviting me | |
| P. Gloss | Thanks folks | |
| Pat Garrow | not yet Charlie, but our guest will be announced when one is line up | |
| Charlie LeeDecker | night Mike, night Pat | |
| * IreneH | MOTIONS/playful.gif As usual, most interesting. And to you, Pat, from one who is retired: you will be busier than ever | |
| Mike Polk | goodnight | |
| Pat Garrow | thanks Irene | |
| Kris Hirst | Charlie has hung up, thanks to everyone | |
| Pat Garrow | Goodnight, Charlie and Mike | |