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Weekly Chat from About Archaeology
Moderated by Pat Garrow and K. Kris Hirst
Transcript: April 8, 2001: Speaker Justin Kerr
Note: This transcript has been slightly edited for readability.
Information about Dr. Kerr's work has been stored here.
Printer-Friendly Chat Transcript
| Pat Garrow | Our guest tonight is Justin Kerr (Justin Kerr), who developed a type of roll out photography for recording Mayan vases. Welcome Justin! |
| Pat Garrow | how about telling us a little about yourself. Where are you from? |
| Justin Kerr | I am based in New York City. |
| Pat Garrow | is that your original home? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, I was born in in the Bronx and went to school through college in New York |
| Pat Garrow | how did you become interested in the Maya? |
| Justin Kerr | I made photographs for Coe's The Maya Scribe: His Art and World |
| Justin Kerr | That was in 1972 |
| Justin Kerr | I realized the need for a better way to record the images on Maya Vase |
| Pat Garrow | I saw the book advertised, and it certainly looks interesting. Tell us about the book |
| Justin Kerr | The book has been out of print for a long time. Only 1000 copies were printed |
| Pat Garrow | I understand that peripheral photography or roll out photography had been around for a while. How did you modify the basic method? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, the technique was available, but the camera was not. I had to build my own |
| IreneH | What is your technique? |
| Kris Hirst | was Michael Coe one of your mentors, then? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes Michael Coe is a dear friend |
| Pat Garrow | the floor is open folks |
| Pat Garrow | how does the earlier book differ from "The Art of the Maya Scribe", which was published in 1998? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, In the new book we explore many other facets of Maya writing |
| IreneH | Is there a website where one can see some of your photos? |
| Justin Kerr | http://www.mayavase.com and www.famsi.org are both portals to the Maya Vase Database and The Pre-Columbian Portfolio |
| Pat Garrow | Check out the photograph of the Vase of the Eleven Gods on the FAMSI web site Irene |
| Justin Kerr | The vase of the Eleven Gods is a square vase and not subject to rollouts |
| Pat Garrow | yes indeed, but what an image! |
| Martha | Justin, the Maya Vase books number six, now. Is there even more material? How will it be published? |
| Justin Kerr | I doubt that we will produce more books in hard copy |
| Kris Hirst | maybe you should talk a bit about the technology involved--you invented it, pretty much? |
| Justin Kerr | No, I did not invent the technology |
| Justin Kerr | I did have to invent the camera---Make that reinvent |
| Pat Garrow | how did you modify the technology Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | I am not sure that modify is the correct terminology |
| Pat Garrow | how so Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | However, there was no camera available in in 1972 to do the work |
| Justin Kerr | It was necessary to build a camera from scratch |
| Justin Kerr | I modified an existing camera to make it into a rollout camera. The original camera and its little brother are still in operation |
| IreneH | Ah, I have the Eleven Gods up now, I see! |
| Pat Garrow | I understand the secret to the whole thing is making the film advance at the same speed the turntable that contains the vase turns. how did you manage that? |
| Justin Kerr | There is a diagram in the book Lords of the Underworld that explains the process |
| Justin Kerr | You can also find on the FAMSI site "The History of Rollouts" which also explains the process |
| Justin Kerr | Pat- trial and error |
| Kris Hirst | one of my favorite things about your work is how useful it is. I just read Inomata and Houston's book "Royal courts of the Ancient Maya" and the chapters all rely on data from your books |
| Pat Garrow | how did you access the Mayan vases you have photographed? they must be from many collections |
| Justin Kerr | Vases have come from many sources |
| Justin Kerr | Most are brought to the studio |
| Justin Kerr | But we have also traveled over the world to record the vases |
| Pat Garrow | I am sure it was much more difficult in the beginning. do people tend to come to you with vases now? |
| Justin Kerr | sometimes |
| Kris Hirst | you mentioned earlier that you intend to continue publishing your stuff on the web; could you talk a little about that? |
| Justin Kerr | The Maya Vase Database is an ongoing project. |
| Justin Kerr | We will continue to publish on the web as material becomes available |
| Pat Garrow | how is the information from your roll out photography being used? |
| Justin Kerr | Pat- You will have to attend one of the Maya meetings and see hoe the vases are being used for reinterpretation of Maya Society |
| Kris Hirst | Tell us about your new project, the Pre-Columbian Portfolio |
| Justin Kerr | The Portfolio project is present photographs of objects and sites that I have photographed over the years |
| Justin Kerr | There are now 650 images on line |
| Justin Kerr | I will be putting more images on line as fast as I can get them scanned and researched |
| Kris Hirst | have you experimented with video, or stayed primarily with stills? |
| Justin Kerr | I am a still photographer |
| Martha | Are they copyrighted, Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | All of our images are copyright |
| IreneH | Did you start out a photographer or an archaeologist? |
| Justin Kerr | A photographer |
| Pat Garrow | can you tell us a little about the overall work of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies? |
| Justin Kerr | FAMSI funds projects in Mesoamerica |
| Pat Garrow | how are those projects chosen for funding? |
| Justin Kerr | When you visit the FAMSI web site, you can find a list of all the projects that have been funded |
| Justin Kerr | Most of the projects that have been funded have sent in reports of their work and those e reports are posted on http://www.famsi.org |
| Kris Hirst | It is really a great resource for information about Mesoamerican research, for sure. |
| IreneH | So you concentrate on Mesoamerica. Are there others who do the same thing in Europe/Middle East? |
| Justin Kerr | I don't know, our work is based solely in Mesoamerica |
| Martha | A question about vase styles; do the Codex Style vases (which look like pages from the codices) come from a particular area? or time? or type of grave? |
| Martha | Are they late? |
| Justin Kerr | Although some vase in Codex style have been found in major tombs many are also found in small house mounds |
| Justin Kerr | I don't know if there are solid dates at this time |
| Martha | House mounds! Not in burials? |
| Justin Kerr | Burials under the floors of residential houses |
| IreneH | I'm the lay person here, Martha. What is the Codex style? |
| Martha | They look like pages from the Maya books -codices - black drawing on a light background. |
| Justin Kerr | Codex style refers to vases where black or brown line is painted over a white or creme background |
| IreneH | Aha! Thx! |
| Justin Kerr | They are almost always mythological in nature with the exception of the so- called Dynasty series. |
| Justin Kerr | Linda Schele and company give you a look at the dynasties of most of the important Maya sites |
| Kris Hirst | are the non-mythical vases then records of dynastic events/ |
| Justin Kerr | It is possible that some of the vases record history |
| Justin Kerr | However, the text on vases tends to be very short |
| IreneH | How long does it take you approximately to make a roll out photograph, and do you do it all at once or in sections? |
| Justin Kerr | A rollout photograph takes about 2 minutes and is done in one session |
| Kris Hirst | is there a decorative differentiation between the mythological and dynastic? or is it just a selection of images thing? |
| Justin Kerr | The dynastic series is all text they are published in Volume 5 of the the Maya Vase Book series |
| Justin Kerr | A way to see the difference in style is to log onto the Vase Database and click on codex style |
| Justin Kerr | Then click on polychrome and see the difference |
| Kris Hirst | It's been only recently that they've deciphered the Maya script,yes? Linda Schele did a lot of that work, I understand |
| Justin Kerr | Linda was one of the pioneers in the work. |
| Justin Kerr | There were many other people such as Steve Houston, David Stuart |
| Justin Kerr | Nicolia Grube, Barbara MacLeod and a host of others |
| Kris Hirst | Hmm. I guess that's true about all decipherment; Ventris got the credit for Linear B but he always said it was a group effort |
| Martha | Have you done any photos in other wavelengths IR, UV, to see detail that is faded? |
| Justin Kerr | The Bonampak project under the direction of Dr. Mary Miller of Yale used IR to examine the painted walls. This work was done by Dr. Gene Ware of BYU.We were able to see under painting that had never been seen before. |
| Justin Kerr | Jorge Perez de Lara also did much of the IR photography |
| Martha | Were you photographing there, then? |
| Justin Kerr | My part of the project was the color images |
| Martha | Cool! |
| Justin Kerr | Yes Martha it was cool about 90 degrees in the shade |
| Martha | OOFFF! |
| Kris Hirst | will this project also end up online? |
| Justin Kerr | Yale has a web site up and running I will look up the URL |
| Kris Hirst | do you prefer online publication, or does it pose special problems |
| Justin Kerr | Both media have their problems |
| Justin Kerr | however, online moves across the world |
| Pat Garrow | I am still interested in how the data from the roll outs are being used in research. Are you aware of any papers at the upcoming SAA meeting that will use data from your roll outs? |
| Justin Kerr | No, I generally do not attend the SAA |
| Justin Kerr | Pat. I am not sure since the images are available many scholars use them |
| Pat Garrow | will make an effort to identify some of those papers and attend them |
| Pat Garrow | understand Justin, it has become a really big meeting. I will try to see how your work is being used |
| IreneH | What's IR, Martha? |
| Martha | Infra Red - heat energy. |
| IreneH | Should have figured that out myself |
| Justin Kerr | The online database is a product of the database that I developed for my own use there from interest |
| Kris Hirst | I've played there several times, to be honest, looking for similar images. |
| Kris Hirst | I also think, in my own way, that online publishing is cheaper, in terms of being able to publish more images |
| Kris Hirst | but, speaking as a photographer, do you feel the image lose something in translation to the web? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, it does |
| Justin Kerr | But on special request, I have posted hi-res. images for a project |
| IreneH | But can't you manipulate it by editing it? |
| Justin Kerr | Pixels are pixels |
| Kris Hirst | is it a color thing, or primarily detail? |
| Justin Kerr | There is a color problem. Every monitor is doing its own thing |
| IreneH | Yes, I can see that color can be a problem |
| Martha | Has anyone made a rollout DIGITAL camera? They use CD's for imaging, right? Could that work? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, there are digital cameras that can make rollouts |
| Kris Hirst | my husband the photographer sneers at digital cameras |
| Kris Hirst | are you of the same opinion? |
| IreneH | I don't like them either but have to use one sometimes |
| Justin Kerr | I do most of my work on film |
| Pat Garrow | He hasn't seen the right one yet Kris |
| Pat Garrow | there are very high resolution digitals available now |
| IreneH | Must be expensive though, pat, or? |
| Pat Garrow | I have one that has 3.3 mega-pixels, but under $1,000 |
| IreneH | Too much for a small non-profit budget |
| Pat Garrow | understand that Irene, but the price keeps coming down |
| IreneH | I sure hope so |
| Kris Hirst | do you also publish to CD-ROM, Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, Volumes 1, 2, and 3 of the Vase Books are on CD |
| Martha | Is there any way one can know if a vase in a photo has been repainted? |
| Justin Kerr | I takes a lot of study to deal with that problem |
| Kris Hirst | Are you happy with the digital images provided for the CD-ROM, or is there a similar problem with quality in transferring the images to JPEG's? |
| Pat Garrow | any thought of putting the rest on CD as the hard copies are sold Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, The CD are in PDF format and the prints almost equal the original books |
| Martha | Yeah! |
| Pat Garrow | can't they be TIFF images? |
| Justin Kerr | Since I was able to use color on the CDs that is another bonus |
| IreneH | But viewing them would be the same as online? |
| Justin Kerr | No the CD images are somewhat higher res. |
| Kris Hirst | well, PDF would be more like a book, rather than separate images |
| IreneH | Ah |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, the PDF file is the file that is sent to the printer |
| Kris Hirst | eh, maybe the technology will continue to improve... |
| Pat Garrow | have any of your images been made available to the public as decorative prints? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, a number of rollout images decorate people's walls |
| IreneH | Is there a catalogue? |
| Pat Garrow | how are they marketed, or rather where are they available? |
| Justin Kerr | The Denver Art Museum has a permanent exhibition of the photographs |
| Justin Kerr | Pat- from us |
| Justin Kerr | By request |
| Justin Kerr | No from Kerr Associates http://www.mayavase.com |
| Pat Garrow | oh--can you give me a web address on that? |
| Justin Kerr | or you can contact us at mayavase@aol.com |
| Kris Hirst | tell us what kinds of images are in the Precolumbian portfolio. |
| Kris Hirst | and what are your plans for it in the future? |
| Justin Kerr | Portfolio contains images of objects from Mesoamerica, sites, and some objects from South America as well |
| Justin Kerr | I hope to have between 4000 and 5000 images on line in a few years |
| Pat Garrow | are you involved in other forms of photography than the Mayan images? |
| Justin Kerr | yes, Pat, |
| IreneH | Oh wow, Justin, I like the way you mouse-over the photos! |
| Justin Kerr | The Software for the Database and The Portfolio was develop by Laurent Imbaud of the Saiph Corporation |
| Kris Hirst | see, that's one thing you can't do in traditional print |
| Justin Kerr | The ability to link is the advantage of the web |
| Justin Kerr | In the near future the FAMSI site will link all the material into one search |
| IreneH | I'm always look for new ideas for websites |
| Kris Hirst | what sites are you planning on showing in the PP? |
| Justin Kerr | Copan, Tikal, Chichen Itza, Uxmal. Sayil, Yaxchilan, etc |
| Martha | Justin, what's the best way for amateurs to try out their theories and ideas about iconography? Is there an online email list, for instance, where people can exchange their ideas? |
| Justin Kerr | yes, There is AZTLAN a news group and sci.archaeology.mesoamerica |
| Justin Kerr | You can always contact me at mayavase@aol.com |
| Martha | AZTLAN is pretty diffuse - not just epigraphy or iconography,I mean. Could one of your sites support such an effort. |
| Justin Kerr | We have a bulletin board on the FAMSI site for questions and comments. check it out |
| Martha | OK! That would be great. |
| Kris Hirst | actually, AZTLAN often of late discusses various images and what they might mean, as a matter of fact. It's well worth dropping in on the discussion |
| Justin Kerr | yes, I posted questions and created comment pages attached to the vase |
| Kris Hirst | AZTLAN, Irene, cause I know you're going to ask, is an email discussion group for Mesoamericanists; named after the mythical home city of the Aztecs |
| IreneH | Thank you! |
| Kris Hirst | you've concentrated on the Americas, Justin; do you have any plans to wander further afield? |
| IreneH | So many things to look at, so little time sigh |
| Justin Kerr | No, with the time I have left, I will stay with America |
| Pat Garrow | how much of your time is devoted to the Maya images Justin? |
| Justin Kerr | about 6 hours a day |
| Pat Garrow | quite substantial then |
| Kris Hirst | will you have South American sites as well in the PP? are you fond of the Inca? |
| Justin Kerr | I will not have any South American Sites only objects |
| Martha | Just an idea - have you ever done a rollout photo of a person? |
| Justin Kerr | Yes, I was going to take a year off and work on that, but the Maya got in the way |
| Kris Hirst | I have to ask--what's your favorite Mayan image, if you have one? |
| Justin Kerr | I love all my children |
| Kris Hirst | I am fondest, myself, of the rabbit/scribe |
| Justin Kerr | Gilette Griffen wears him in his lapel |
| Justin Kerr | So did Linda Schele |
| Martha | I love the toad. |
| Justin Kerr | Martha- The toad's name ids AH MAL-the dripper. |
| Martha | Dripping his strange venom, bufotenine? |
| Justin Kerr | Martha, I think you've got it |
| IreneH | I'm looking at the toad right now, wow! |
| Kris Hirst | is there an advantage to such close study of the images alone? what do you think you've acquired along the way, in terms of knowledge about the Maya? |
| Justin Kerr | Since the vase images are the main body of pictorial evidence we have of the Maya, I believe we have learned quite a bit from them |
| Justin Kerr | As more text is being read, the images come more alive. |
| Kris Hirst | so, not to simplify or anything, but if you had to describe the Maya culture, how would you do it? |
| Justin Kerr | Lets have a two week symposium and we can get to the beginning |
| Kris Hirst | okay, fair enough <grin> |
| Justin Kerr | My guess is that the Maya were as complex a culture as any the world has produced |
| Kris Hirst | so much of it was lost during the Spanish conquest, it's a fortunate thing we have the vases |
| Justin Kerr | I think there was much lost in the period between the classic and late classic periods. The Maya seem somewhat different in the terminal classic |
| Pat Garrow | we are down to the last few minutes. Time for last call for questions |
| Kris Hirst | is that change reflected in the images on the vases as well as archaeologically? |
| Kris Hirst | (not that the vases aren't archaeological) |
| Justin Kerr | to some extent. There are differences in the way myths are treated |
| Kris Hirst | Oh, thanks very much for coming, Justin Kerr. It was a very interesting discussion. Thanks to everyone who came, as well. |
| IreneH | It was a real eye-opener for me, Justin! |
| Pat Garrow | Who is our guest for next week Kris? |
| Kris Hirst | Next week is Rosemary Joyce, of the Sister Stories website (another Mesoamericanist) |
| Pat Garrow | thanks for coming Justin |
| Justin Kerr | Thank you all, and May the Lords of Xibalba be with you |
| Kris Hirst | gee, thanks! (I think) |
| Martha | Good night to all -- |